The isolation of peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan continues, and so does, accordingly, the struggle against it by the Kurdish people and their international friends. At the same time, there are discussions in Turkey on meeting with Abdullah Ocalan. How do you evaluate the current developments in this regard?

Undoubtedly, the recent developments and discussions regarding Rêber Apo¹ are important. Rêber Apo has been a hostage in Imrali for 26 years. He is always on the agenda of our movement, our people, and the Turkish state. Last year, a global campaign was developed under the leadership of the international friends of the Kurdish people for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. That is an important campaign. Many international organizations, especially women, youth, and non-governmental organizations, but also politicians and academics, participate in this movement. From Asia to America, from Europe to the Middle East, women all over the world stand up for it and develop it gradually. Neither we, our people, nor our international friends will accept the current situation. The aim of this global campaign is to ensure the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. All struggle and efforts are based on this and won’t end as long as this situation prolongs.

As it is known, Omer Ocalan was able to meet Rêber Apo not long ago. In this meeting, Rêber Apo said that the isolation continues, and he also said that he has the theoretical and practical power to move the process from the grounds of conflict and violence to the legal and political grounds if the conditions arise. We and our people are aware of the isolation that Rêber Apo is in. Our duty is to wage a more radical, more organized, and wider struggle to break it. Not only for the lifting of the isolation but also for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo. Rêber Apo has been under severe isolation and oppression in Imrali for 26 years. One can only guess what is happening in Imrali. We understand from the statements of Bahceli and Erdogan that there is a great struggle regarding Imrali. Bahceli stated that the DEM Party delegation should go and see Rêber Apo as soon as possible. He had already previously said that Rêber Apo should come to the parliament and speak there. It is hard to tell what their true intention is, but what is known is that there is a great pressure against Rêber Apo and that he is fighting against it. Whatever the Turkish state was aiming for, they failed to achieve it; their calculations did not work.

The Turkish state, particularly the AKP-MHP, is showing great hypocrisy regarding the Kurdish question. They are not honest and still are trying to mock people’s minds; they want to change the agenda, deceive society, and manipulate. Whatever their calculations, they have realized that without Rêber Apo, the democratization of Turkey and the solution of the Kurdish question are not possible. We always say that Rêber Apo is the address for a solution, and now the Turkish state has also had to accept this reality. They have realized that nothing can be achieved without Rêber Apo. They are now stuck. They calculated that they would destroy the guerrilla, subjugate the society, the PKK would become isolated, and then they would achieve their goals and solve the Kurdish question in their own way. But their calculations didn’t add up. The guerrilla is still standing, resisting with great heroism. On this occasion, I salute all the friends who are currently resisting in the war tunnels and at the front and wish them success. The Turkish state cannot achieve results against this will, against this resistance. And that although they use all their means. They trample on international law and the laws of war; they use the collaboration of the KDP, and NATO always supports them. They use the most advanced technology against us, but the result is clearly visible to everyone. Their calculations do not work, and they cannot achieve results.

Many developments are taking place in the Middle East; new processes are developing. If the Turkish state insists on the same way, it will reach the same result. That’s why they started a search. For four years they have been imposing a heavy isolation and great pressure on Rêber Apo in Imrali. Rêber Apo never compromised his stance and showed that he had the will for a solution. So, the Turkish state got trapped in a dead end there too and failed to get results. When their neo-Ottoman calculations regarding the Middle East failed, this time they became scared and started looking for different ways. They made calculations to manipulate the PKK, to play on internal problems, if possible, to separate Rêber Apo from the PKK, and to confuse the Kurdish politics on a legal level. In this way, they wanted to find a way and achieve their goals. The process is still going on in this way.

Rêber Apo expressed that he has the theoretical and practical power to move this process from the ground of conflict and violence to the legal and political ground. But the Turkish state is just talking and does not take a step and still does not take responsibility. This is also evident in their speeches. Every day its academics and advisors say that there are no Kurds, that there just is the Turkish nation. Would it be okay if I used the same rhetoric and said, “There are no Turks; they are Arabs or they are English”? That makes about as much sense as saying that there are no Kurds or that Kurds are Turks. Kurds are Kurds, and Turks are Turks. There is no point in being ashamed of this, and there is also no reason to consider themselves superior to other nations. But the Turkish state still says there are no Kurds, there is no Kurdish question, there is a terrorist problem. They say no to federation, autonomy, and education in mother tongue. There is denial and rejection of the Kurdish people. With such a mentality, no solution can develop.

They are probably calculating that they still can deceive the Kurds, change the agenda, and develop a dystopia among the Kurds. But they must realize that they have not been able to achieve results with these dirty policies over the last centuries. They have to accept the Kurdish reality. The solution of the Kurdish question means the democratization of Turkey. Our people say that the recent developments in Turkey are a game they play. The Turkish state should openly express what is needed to solve the Kurdish question. If they are honest, if they really want to solve the question, then Rêber Apo has to be physically free and take part in this process. Our people say this and do not compromise on their struggle. On the one hand, the Turkish regime talks about a solution and says that Rêber Apo should come and speak in the parliament; on the other hand, it usurps the will of the Kurdish people by implementing trustees every day. The DEM Party won the municipality of Elih (tr. Batman), which has the highest count of votes in all of Turkey and Kurdistan, but still a trustee was installed, and they still call it democracy.

The Kurdish people see this, and for them it is not possible to digest and accept this. This approach is not about solving the Kurdish question but rejecting it. It is the mentality of denying the Kurdish people and insisting on war. If they would be serious and honest, Rêber Apo would always be ready; our movement and our people are ready for a solution. Recently the information leaked that the Turkish state has spent 3 trillion dollars since the beginning of the war. This is enough budget for a whole country. If the economy of the Turks has collapsed today, if people are poor and hungry, the main reason for this is the war against the Kurdish people. But Turkish trade unions and Turkish politicians do not talk about this. This war has upset the life, future, psychology, and politics of Turkish society. The Turkish state is blocked not only inside but also outside; they have been disgraced. No matter how much they say they will expand everywhere in the Middle East with their neo-Ottoman mindset, they are hitting dead ends wherever they go. They have no choice; either they accept and solve the Kurdish question, or they will lose everything.

Turkey is currently experiencing a major political, social, and economic crisis. And once again it has resorted to trustees. They are putting the municipalities of the DEM Party and CHP on the agenda and seizing them. How do you evaluate this trustee method and the attitude against it?

Trusteeship is dictatorship, fascism, occupation, ignoring, and trampling on the will of the people. They are sending a message to the Kurds, saying that if they don’t think and act like the state wants, this is what will happen to them. The state threatens and says that they can’t live democratically. A few days ago, Devlet Bahceli said to the DEM Party that either they will come around or will be destroyed. How can a politician say such a thing to a party that has received over 8 million, almost 10 million votes, has municipalities, and has MPs? Even according to Turkish law? Only dictators can say that; only Bahceli can say that. Whatever the Turkish state says about the Kurdish people and the PKK, it says it consciously. It calculates every step it takes, every word in every speech. Both Bahceli’s speeches and the trustee seizures are a message. “If you are not like us, if you insist on being yourself, if you do politics on your own behalf, if you insist on the solution of the Kurdish question and the democratization of Turkey, we will not give way to you; we will appoint trustees.”.

Our people understand this, and they are taking a stance against it, which is important. But it is not sufficient. There is great oppression and fascism, and protecting one’s honor, labor, and gains requires a price and requires a great resistance. Our people are on the move; they are resisting. We congratulate them, but they need to struggle more and continuously. For example, when they appoint a trustee in one place, they should rise up everywhere as if they were appointed everywhere. They should rise up not only in the province or district where a trustee was appointed but throughout all of Kurdistan. It should not be so easy to appoint a trustee. This must be fought against everywhere. In the legal, political, international, and social spheres, and generally everywhere, there must be a struggle and constant protest. Because there is a great injustice. They are ignoring the will of the Kurdish people, and of course a struggle must be waged against this. Not only the Kurdish people, but everyone who considers himself/herself a democrat or socialist and is against fascism must unite their will and power. The democratization of Turkey is not independent from the solution of the Kurdish question. The solution of the Kurdish question is not independent from the democratization of Turkey. Their pains and joys are the same. Therefore, all forces against fascism, even those with liberal values, should act together and raise their voices everywhere against the AKP-MHP dictatorship and the trustee usurpations. Society and democratic forces in Turkey must rise up in a more organized and stronger way. They also appointed trustees to the CHP; the AKP is experimenting, testing their reflexes. If the CHP continues to behave like this, they will appoint more trustees. The CHP should not be afraid of the Kurds or the DEM Party. They should be brave and act together. Actually, it is not a matter of courage because there is injustice, there is fascism, and those who are against fascism must fight together. They are appointing trustees to both you and the DEM Party. Even if they wouldn’t appoint trustees for you, everyone who is a Democrat must struggle against this together. CHP is lacking in this regard. However, they have the power. They can shake Turkey on the issue of Turkey’s democratization. All forces against fascism should unite and struggle together, but the CHP is weak in this regard. The 100-year-old Republican veins sometimes stand out more. It is true; there are efforts, but they are not enough; the CHP must play a crucial role. Otherwise, they will continue to appoint trustees to their municipalities. The trustee issue is briefly like this: the AKP-MHP fascism is seriously stuck, and they are sending us a message to step back. Everyone, especially the democratic forces, must take a stand and struggle against these trustee policies. AKP is not strong in society right now; they are not liked by society. They are not even strong within the state; their economy has collapsed, their politics have collapsed, and they have played with everything in society. They exist only with the power of the state. The power of the state is not everything; society and truth are necessary. Therefore, if the struggle is strengthened, fascism will be forced to step back or will be defeated.

The war in the Middle East deepened with the war between Hamas and Israel. It reached Lebanon, and now it has emerged in Syria. Syria has once again turned into a war zone. For what purpose did this war develop in Syria? What are the roles and missions of which forces in these attacks?

We are talking about a very complex issue. Hundred years ago, so many states were not established for no purpose or in vain. These states were not established by the will of the Arab community. Nation states were established in line with goals, strategies, and interests. Hegemonic powers established nation states in the Middle East so that there would be war, death, and slaughtering each other, so that they would not be strong, so that they would not reach the truth. The Kurds’ share is that the Kurdish question is not solved, and Kurdistan is divided into four parts. After a hundred years, this strategy has expired. There will be changes. These changes will either come through democratic forces and society, which is what is being fought for. Especially Rêber Apo’s paradigm is leading the way in this regard. Or the hegemonic powers and capitalist modernity realize changes based on their long-term interests. The Israel-Hamas war has been going on for over a year; it was not localized or limited to Gaza, Palestine, and Israel. The war grew day by day, and gradually other powers got involved. Israel, with the support of the hegemonic powers, especially America, dealt a big blow to Hamas. We can see the situation of the Palestinian people now. Afterwards, Israel targeted Hezbollah. Again, carried by the international forces and the most advanced technology, it dealt heavy blows to Hezbollah. It seems that they have designed Lebanon according to their own interests. America, Britain, and generally Europe and Israel have neutralized Hezbollah in Lebanon to prevent it from jeopardizing American and Israeli interests.

The situation in Syria is related to this. The Syrian regime was hit, Hezbollah was hit, and they targeted Iran, so Iran can no longer play a role in Syria as it used to. The Turkish state is always looking for an opportunity. It is calculating how to make its plans for Syria succeed. The Turkish state has supported tens of thousands of ISIS gang members and mercenaries and their versions in Idlib, on Syrian soil. Most of HTS are essentially ISIS members. The Turkish state says that territorial integrity must be preserved in Syria, but it has occupied three-fifths of Syrian territory. It has not only occupied it but also annexed it. It took its own state system there. It has opened schools, administrative districts, governors, and governors, and annexed it in every sense. Bahceli also said a couple of days ago that Aleppo is a Turkish city. This Ottoman mind still sees the Middle Eastern societies as their provinces, and they approach them in a patronizing manner.

On the one hand, they say they defend the territorial integrity of Syria; on the other hand, they occupy three-fifths of it. They say they don’t want crises and chaos, but these crises and chaos are caused by gangs carried out by the Turkish state. They do the opposite of what they say. The Turkish state was saying that Israel was preparing for an attack on Syrian territory, but it is clear that they themselves have made such a preparation. America, Britain, and Israel held talks with the Turkish state. We don’t know if they planned these attacks together, but the Turkish state has calculations about Syria. It is not clear how Syria will turn out. There is an extraordinary situation. Since the beginning of the war in Syria, we have based the struggle on Rêber Apo’s paradigm. We have been based on all societies, identities, and beliefs living together on the basis of a democratic nation, avoiding nationalism and building a democratic life together.

Rojava has taken a serious stance on this issue. The administration has always said that it is not in favor of the disintegration of Syria. They want to live together in a democratic Syria. Kurds, Arabs, Christians, Assyrians, and Turkmens shall all live together. This is the correct approach. But the nation state mind does not see Rojava’s positive and democratic approach and does not attach importance to it. The regime always insisted on itself. Russia did not play a full role; Iran tried, but either their power was not enough or there were other obstacles, so they could not get results. The ground for such an attack in Syria was prepared. Before the attacks, Erdogan said that he was ready to negotiate with Assad. Now he is saying again that he is open to talks. What he is basically saying now is that they have managed to strike Assad; he is wounded, and therefore he must now enter into negotiations. They are forcing him to negotiate.

In general, the international powers aim to create a Syria without its own will, a Syria that accepts the existing system and serves it. The Turkish state also wants to have a Syria that suits them. It is not clear how the situation will evolve. No matter how late it is, Syria must immediately put into practice a model where all cultures, identities, beliefs, and nations can live together on the basis of a democratic nation. This is the only way to find a solution. If this is not done, the Syrian state will suffer. It will not continue like this; there will definitely be a change. What we want and what is right is for the Syrian state to recognize this reality, to open its ears and eyes, which it has closed until now, and to work on a solution. If it does not do this, it is difficult to estimate where Syria will go. The Turkish state will use these gangs to the fullest.

But there is also more. One should remember how ISIS crossed into Syria from Mosul with trucks, tanks, and all kinds of heavy weapons in front of everyone’s eyes. They became a plague for Rojava. The people of Rojava, especially the people of Kobane, put up a great resistance; the international powers targeted ISIS, and finally their will was broken to a great extent; the fate of HTS will be the same. At the moment they are being supported and organized, and they are conquering space, but they will be thrown aside. They will also become a plague for the Turkish state. After all, Syria is a different country; the Turkish state cannot always set their agenda and adjust it. They have neither the power nor the wisdom for that. The solution is for the Turkish state to negotiate with Rêber Apo to solve the Kurdish question and to solve its internal problems.

When looking at the one hundred year history of the Turkish state, one can see that for the first time it has no role in the Middle East; it is excluded from the plans of the hegemonic powers. On the contrary, the Kurdish people are a major factor for the first time. Everywhere the Kurds are strong. Where there is no Kurdish consent, no change is possible in the name of democracy and solution. True, there are dangers, but there are also many opportunities. If the Kurdish people and their forces have the will and take the necessary steps in time, they can play a very crucial role in the future. But the Turkish state does not have such a chance. It cannot determine its future only with ISIS.

The Astana meetings were implemented to resolve the problems in Syria, but with the emergence of these attacks, it became clear that those involved were undermining each other from behind. How do you assess this?

As far as I know, before Astana in 2016, Rojava wanted to develop a solution with the Syrian state, Iran, and Russia to hold talks and to find a way forward. They wanted to work honestly. Russia even agreed that Syria, Rojava, and Russia should come together and solve this issue, as in the Astana format. But then the Turkish state stepped up and had a meeting with the Russians the next day and made some concessions, and the approach changed. Then Astana came into being. Russia, Iran, and Turkey, and indirectly Syria. Each of them was aiming to undermine the other. None of them trusted the other.

Russia knows very well what the NATO membership of Turkey means. Also, Iran and the Turkish state have so far only gotten along over the Kurdish issue, but otherwise they have serious problems with each other in every other sense. They have never trusted each other, and their interests are rarely the same. That’s why they have tried to undermine each other in Astana. They walked together up to a certain point, but everything has come out, especially in recent days. For example, the Turkish state’s relations with Ukraine and America’s and Europe’s focus on Turkey due to its NATO membership are seen by Russia and Iran. The Turkish state’s calculations regarding the Azerbaijanis, its calculations regarding Iran’s internal problems, Iran is very well aware of this. They do not have the same views on Syria. Neither Syria nor Russia could tolerate the occupation of Syrian territory. The Astana talks were not based on principles or the right strategies. The Turkish state and its thousands of gangs had occupied Syrian territory while being a member of NATO. Syria and Russia did not want to fight and remove the Turkish state, so the Turkish state wanted to take the chance and create facts.

They carried out such policies for a while. Now everyone is reviewing the situation to evaluate who was deceived and how, what kind of games Turkey played, what Iran and Russia hope for, and what they finally received. There never was such a thing as the Astana spirit. The revival of Astana will not be so easy. No results have been achieved anyway. No problem in Syria can be solved with the Astana mindset. Instead, they should see the reality, the truth. The internal problems in Syria can only be solved with the Syrian society from the perspective of a democratic nation. The society and organizations will be ready for this, and the Syrian state, no matter how late it is, must think clearly, think strategically, and make an urgent decision to act together.

Before Trump was elected, he said that the war in the Middle East would grow and deepen. Where do you think the war that started in Gaza, then spread to Lebanon and now continues in Syria is heading?

As I pointed out before, the problems in the Middle East are very complex. Sexism, racism, statism, religionism, everything exists in the Middle East. But there is also this: capitalist modernity has hit the Middle East, but it is stuck and cannot get a result. It is not possible to solve the problems in the Middle East through foreign powers. A lasting solution can be found with the mind and will of the Middle Eastern society. But capitalist modernity hinders this mindset and will. In its interest is always the creation of chaos, crisis, and problems. When this crisis and chaos arise from time to time, they immediately intervene with war. No one knows what Trump will do, but as far as we understand, Trump will use all of America’s military, economic, and political power to solve problems according to his own interests. He may not necessarily use military interventions, just as a last resort. Mainly he will use his embargo power, his economic power, and then he will exert political pressure. In this way, he will want to pull Syria to his line, he will design Lebanon according to himself, and he will blockade Iraq and Iran militarily through economic and political pressure. He will aim to make these states desperate and get them to establish relations with him. Of course, he will also militarily intervene if he deems it necessary.

But all this is not a solution. The solution is the democratization of the Middle East. There is a basis for this. In the Middle East, everyone is strangling, exhausting, and destroying each other based on sexism, racism, and religionism. Contrary to this, Rêber Apo’s paradigm emphasizes the democratic coexistence of all societies. And the societies in the Middle East are open to this. The important aspect is to organize it well, to bring it forward, and to strengthen its struggle. Why should democratic confederalism not be possible in the Middle East? We need to work for it, need to struggle for it, and insist on it. Politics does not accept a vacuum. Yesterday Lebanon, today Syria, and tomorrow maybe Iran, Iraq, and the entire Middle East may experience extraordinary situations. The concept or strategy of a hundred years ago is no longer enough for the hegemonic powers; they want to redesign the Middle East according to their interests.

The Turkish state is trying to cover up how its war against the freedom guerrilla of Kurdistan is going on. For example, in July the Turkish state has only publicly announced the deaths of five of its soldiers. One of them died in Somalia, one in Syria, and three in the operation they call ‘Claw Lock’. But most recently, the head of the Zafer Party, Umit Ozdag, admitted the truth and said that 44 soldiers died in July only in the area of the so-called ‘Claw Lock’ operation. How do you evaluate this situation?

One of the main pillars of the special war that has been waged against us, against our people, for 50 years is lies and manipulation. The Turkish state never reveals the truth. The HPG announces its martyrs. The HPG says announces when a friend of ours was martyred, and mostly a few days later the Turkish state makes a statement saying that they murdered that friend. It never shows its own casualties and deaths accurately. It has prepared many of its personnel accordingly. They also make them sign agreements; they tell the families that if their son dies, the state has the right not to disclose it. They have created a legal basis for themselves. If one looks at the statements they make, if one looks at the number of guerrillas they have allegedly murdered in the last four years, one could almost think that the guerrillas are a huge army consisting of hundreds of thousands of fighters, which is obviously not the case. They are simply lying.

A massive war is being waged. They are attacking using the most advanced technology. They are waging an unlawful war in which chemical weapons are used, and against all these attacks, our friends are resisting 24/7. Of course, we also give martyrs, we do not deny this, as I said, the YJA Star, HPG publishes their identities. But the Turkish state has built everything on lies, and the bad thing is that the society is not aware of this, or they do not realize it often. Especially the society in Turkey, the Kurdish people are of course a more political people; they know the war, but the society in Turkey is not very aware of the realities. Turkish politicians, all politicians in general, should tell the Turkish society about the reality of the war. Three trillion dollars were spent in this war; they could have built Turkey twice with this money. There would be no poverty, unemployment, or hunger in Turkey. Turkey would have been democratized. But the Turkish state will never admit that they spent three trillion dollars on the war. They don’t want the society to understand this because the society will act accordingly and criticize. That’s why they don’t want the public to know. Even someone like Umit Ozdag gets desperate and confesses, and what he says is not exactly true, but it is close to the truth. They cannot hide it anymore. Even a fascist like Umit Ozdag, who is nothing less than Bahceli, has no tolerance left against AKP-MHP. He gets desperate and announces how many people have died. This reveals the state they are in. Suleyman Soylu was saying that they know everything about the guerrilla, even the size of their shoes. Again they were saying they would end the struggle of the guerrilla within four months; another one was saying that we will bring them to their end next year, but our struggle has revealed that no matter which state, which government, or which power, if they do not approach the Kurdish question seriously, if they do not produce a solution, they themselves will perish.

Since the beginning of this war, dozens of General Staffs, dozens of Prime Ministers, dozens of Presidents, dozens of security and intelligence officers have come and gone, but the PKK is still standing. This is the dialectic. We say that we started from scratch, and this is the truth. Rêber Apo started from scratch. Of course the Kurdish people had a legacy of resistance; there are honorable leaders like Sheikh Said, Seyit Riza, etc. in our history, but the Turkish state attacked the Kurdish people in such a brutal way that the Kurds had nothing left. Rêber Apo started from scratch, based on the truth and reached millions. The 46th anniversary of the founding of the PKK was celebrated by millions of people all over the world. We are openly saying the reality of the war, what the situation is. Our movement gives people confidence, but the Turkish state is not like that, they lie to each other, they lie to their society, they lie to everyone and these lies are exposed every day. They cannot hide it anymore.

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